Highlights & Takeaways
Introduced The Brew Bomb – Cold drip brewing system
Brew more coffee in less time – Batch cycles from 2-5 hours
Versatile brewer allowing batches from 2.5 – 60 gallons
Self-filtering system with spent grind dump for easy cleaning
Episode 72 Transcript
Brendan Hanson: Hey there, you’re listening to another episode of the Drips & Draughts Podcast. We’ve got a good episode for you today, as we are introducing a new product. We’re joined today by Ray Berger, the inventor of the new BrewBomb, cold drip, cold brewing system, which is actually a timely episode, because our guests last week, First Press Coffee out of Australia, they actually use a cold drip method. I think cold drip is something that we’re going to start seeing more and more of, or at least hearing more about. If you didn’t hear last week’s episode, it was part six of our Australian Cold Brew series. It was episode number 71. You can find it by going to dripsanddraughts.com/71. Or if you’re looking for all of the shows in the Australian Cold Brew Series, you can find those by going to dripsanddraughts.com/aucoldbrew.
Just a reminder, if you’re getting any value out of this podcast, take a minute to hop onto iTunes and leave us a review. That’s it for our plea for reviews today. Going to keep that real short. Just one more quick note before we get into today’s show. Stay tuned after the interview. During our altro, we’re going to give some links and some more info about the brewbomb system. Or if you’re impatient and can’t wait for that, you can go check it out at kegoutlet.com/brewbomb.
All right, with that, let’s get into today’s interview with Ray Berger, the creator of the BrewBomb.
Announcer: Thanks to our sponsor, Cold Brew Avenue, the first stainless steel cold brew system that has reinvented how you cold brew. Easily brew up to 50 gallons using their 100% reusable stainless steel filter system. Visit them at coldbrewavenue.com to learn more.
Brendan: Welcome back. You’re listening to another episode of the Drips & Draughts podcast. As always, I’m Brendon Hanson, I’ve got my brother Cary in studio with me today. We’re joined by Ray Berger, the inventor of the BrewBomb. We’ll save that for a little bit later. Ray, how are you doing?
Ray Buerger: Hi Brendan. I’m doing great.
Brendan: Mind giving us a little background on yourself? I know you’re in the coffee world now. How you landed where you’re at?
Ray: Sure. Like everything, accidents happen. That’s how I ended up in coffee. I’m originally a Denver native. In 2008, I’d been doing the same line of work for a long time and decided that there’s more to life. I sold everything and spent a couple of years traveling around. I went west. I went into Australia, New Zealand, and ended up in Southeast Asia where I spent some time on a motorcycle. I just kept seeing coffee plants. The first time I rode by one, I had to get off and just look at it because I’d never seen one. I spent some time in southeast Asia. It’s a nice place to hang out. One thing led to another. Before I knew it, we were in the coffee business in the green bean side of things.
Ray: We brought in a bunch of imported equipment and we were, and we still are, we take coffee all the way from the plant to the cup.
Brendan: That’s awesome. With no prior experience in the coffee business, other than probably drinking a lot of it while you were in Denver.
Ray: That was it.
Brendan: I knew you liked that.
Ray: I like coffee, chocolate, and wine, really. I wanted to do something that had some artistry to it. Coffee has that amazing sense of both science and art. It fits things that I enjoy quite a bit.
Brendan: Yes. Right. For sure. You’re in coffee. You process the plant now. I assume that’s where you got the inspiration for the BrewBomb or?
Ray: We have been working with some really good roasteries in Bangkok. In Southeast Asia, the climate’s hot. It’s hot and it’s humid. Cold coffee is actually 85% of the sales in Southeast Asia’s cold coffee.
Cary: I can imagine that.
Brendan: So just like iced coffees and frape type stuff?
Ray: Yes. All espresso based. I kept reading about cold brew. I think, like we all did, we started with a kitchen pot and some grinds. We did some brief immersion brewing and I really liked the taste of it. We were talking with some guys, one of our customers in Bangkok, Roots Coffee Roaster, and they invited us to come to Bangkok. We packed everything up. We had good management staff running our green bean side of things, and I moved to Bangkok for a year and a half to work with Roots Coffee Roasters on developing a cold brew program.
You start brewing cold brew and it was really quickly evident that there was just no equipment for it. The existing equipment was just difficult. Coffee grinds didn’t lend itself really well to beer equipment, so we practiced with both immersion and drip brewing.
We were using the Kyoto drip brewers. We were using small immersion brewers and just from there. That would have been about three years ago when we started experimenting with equipment and we liked the cup profile on the drip brewing a little better. That is the direction we ended up taking and just after three years of intense research and development and a lot of prototypes, we’re here with BrewBomb.
Brendan: Awesome. At that time when you guys started, was cold brew a thing in Thailand or was it just cold coffee — hot brewed coffee?
Cary: Yes, then cooled down?
Ray: Cold brew, what’s cold brew?
Brendan: You introduced it.
Cary: They’ve Texans in Thailand?
Ray: We did. They would — What? Cold brew? Actually, cold brew is still a very new product in South East Asia. You’d be amazed. There’s not a single national brand. There’s some hipster shops doing cold brew. But what we did is we went in and Roots already had a really good audience and following for hot espresso based drinks pullover and such things. They’re really good. We decided that we would be different and we built their first Roots Coffee Shop with a cold bar out front. As a customer enters their store, the first thing they needed to see is actually a cold bar, and it’s got two taps, a concentrate and a ready-to-drink, and the guys there at Roots do amazing job with recipes.
They take a basic cold brew, whether it’s a concentrate or an RTD, and they add things like all natural orange syrup and some tonic, or they do a great coconut syrup and milk. They’ve had peanut butter cold brews. They’ve had [unintelligible 00:08:13] cold brews. They have a different recipe every month along with three or four other regular offerings.
Brendan: They’re doing cold brew cocktails, non-alcoholic cold brew cocktails.
Ray: Mixology. They’re doing mixology and the last I checked with them, even though they’re very well established in the hot coffee world, their cold coffee outsells the hot coffee.
Cary: We need to reach out to them where we just announced we’re putting together cold brew cocktails eBook and we’re just letting all of our customers and clients and everyone that listens to the show collaborate on it. Send in your cold brew cocktail, we’ll put it in our eBook, give you credit. It sounds like they’d be a perfect fit for this.
Brendan: Yes. I think when we first started talking, you sent some pictures of the Roots Coffee Shop and it just looks like an amazing space, pretty high-end stuff, and it sounds like they do a good job.
Ray: Very coffee forward. They’re about the product. Very much so.
Brendan: Cool. You worked with them to start developing the BrewBomb cold brew system. What were some of the painpoints you were looking to get around or solve when you started developing that?
Ray: Brewing is part science and part art, and the only way that you can really manage a consistent product would be to manage the variable, the brewing variables. Just like roasting or pulling a shot of espresso, right? It’s got to be pretty precise. We like the cup profile on the Kyoto. We looked at that system and we said, “Okay. How do you scale it up?” We scaled it up to a much larger size and we quickly realized that water management was important. You had to control the rate and dispersion of water over the top of the coffee grounds.
Cary: Over the top of the grounds, yes.
Ray: That’s exactly right. That way you can create your own brew profiles and importantly enough when you find a profile that you like, you can replicate it. You’ve got to be able to replicate it.
Brendan: Yes. We know that from brewing beer. If you’re not taking pretty meticulous notes and logging your temperatures and logging your steeping times and boil times, it’s hard to replicate something if you don’t have all that down.
Cary: Yes. If you’re off by something, just a few minutes, it can alter the rest of — a couple of drips.
Brendan: Recipe drastically.
Cary: Yes, exactly.
Ray: You always remember that great brew, but you don’t know how you did it.
Ray: The water management was really important. I came back to the United States and worked here for a couple of months building a prototype with some guys that actually developed parts for race cars. They were pretty innovative and had a high skill level with looking at the problem and help us at solving it. But the problem we didn’t see was that when you put in 40 or 50 pounds of coffee, that coffee will absorb twice its weight in water. That particular model, you had to lift the cylinder up off and dumped the grinds. First time we did that we’re like, “Wow, that’s really heavy.”
Brendan: Shall we call Mr. T in here?
Ray: To manage that, that brewer is still functioning in Bangkok at Roots Coffee Roaster. The brewer itself works really good. But the cleaning in place and grind dispose was really a problem. So we spent another year looking at a lot of different ways of putting the grinds in the top and bringing the spent grinds out the bottom. If you really think about the mass and the quantity and the weight, that’s really the only way to do it.
That presented some real challenges and we had some failures and some problems around that. So, it was just research and development, experimentation, building prototypes, working with them and getting to where we came now. That system seems to work really good.
Brendan: Yes. Well, we’ve kind of teased the system a little bit. Why don’t we –
Cary: Wait. Let’s raise up a pretty fun fact, because we get this question a lot. The coffee grounds will actually absorb twice their weight in water. I feel like this is great information for cold brewers to know.
Cary: How does that calculate exactly? So, we’re using 1lb of coffee, it’ll absorb –
Brendan: A gallon is about 8lbs. So, 8lbs of coffee is going to absorb two gallons of water?
Ray: It will. That’s right.
Cary: Wow. Okay.
Ray: That’s right. So twice it’s weight in water over a period of time, not immediately. But if you put coffee grinds in water, if you were to do 8.35lbs of coffee, that would absorb two gallons of water.
Cary: And that’s just lost because the coffee is going to take that?
Ray: That’s right. So you have to account for that in the amount of water you’re going to dispense versus what you actually yield.
Cary: Right. What you’ll get out of it.
Brendan: Yes. That’s got to be a consideration for anybody who’s starting to brew. Obviously, we sell 15, 30, 50 gallon brew systems. There’s always going to be some loss in those.
Cary: Right. Yes. People will say, “Well, will I get a full 15 gallons out of the 15 gallon systems?” No. Your max will be around 12 or so because of the absorption. But yes, that’s kind of a fun calculation because we give people estimates but I’m sure there’s some variables with that too. Right? Does it matter?
Brendan: It’s the grind size or –
Cary: Grind size, roast level, we find that one absorbs more than the other.
Ray: That’s just all coffee. Rule of thumbs. There’s no absolute technical handbooks for any part of coffee. Approximately, if you work with that on a rule of thumb, you’re going to get pretty close.
Brendan: Yes. All right. Well, back to the system, would you mind giving us an introduction to the system? You said the name of it once, let’s introduce it again.
Ray: Yes, we’ve called it the BrewBomb. It’s kind of an out there name for it, but we like it because it’s a very unique product, it’s totally new technology, it’s a new way of thinking about making cold brew, and it delivers great results.
Brendan: You mentioned that you’ve got some engineers working on it who worked on race cars, so I’ve got to imagine it’s going to be fast.
Ray: [laughs] It is. I never thought of it that way but yes. I guess. Can you call four, five, six hours fast. But yes, there’s no agitation. It’s just like the Kyoto where the coffee grinds sit in a cylinder, essentially, and the agitation is just the water falling through the coffee grinds, and essentially it’s erosion. You’re flowing water through coffee grinds and depending on the build in your water, you’ve got your calcium, magnesium and your PH to consider that that water is going to extract certain compounds out of the coffee.
Ray: Another neat thing about the system is you can do so much with water temperature. You can brew part of your brew with hot water, cold water, that’s really up to you how you want to manage that. But it gives you an infinite number of variables that you can work with.
Brendan: Yes. So much of the stuff that we see in cold brewing coffee now, I see so many parallels to brewing beer and all of the variables that you can tweak and play with.
Ray: It’s infinite.
Brendan: Yes, I mean if we were to put 30lbs of coffee in your system and run 73 degree water over it for two hours and take that brew and then do it again and run 33 degree water over it for two hours, I would imagine we would have two totally different brews at the end of the day. I think that is a really cool selling point. Go ahead.
Cary: I was just going to say not to mention the time. Typically, up until now, most people are doing immersion brewing and most people say let it steep for 16 to 24 hours. I mean, you’re able to do a large capacity in four, five, six hours, right?
Ray: Up to the brewmaster. So those brew times are available. You theoretically can even do shorter brew times with matching your grind size. So, a finer grind size is going to require a slower flow. There’s also some impact on the cup. But again, it’s very origin specific. So a finer grind, we’re finding, is giving us a little better brew profile but it’s very origin specific.
Brendan: Okay. Well, let’s talk about some of the specs of the system for a sec. What is the capacity of this thing? What’s my maximum batch size, what’s my minimum batch size?
Ray: In gallons, your minimum batch size is going to be about say 10 gallons. It does come with an accessory, an inner brew cylinder that will allow you to brew as little as five gallons if you have a high end specialty coffee that you want to brew.
Brendan: Like in [unintelligible 00:17:51] we were talking about earlier that –
Ray: That’s $600 a pound. [laughs] You may want to not put in 30, 40 pounds of that. So it comes with a smaller cylinder that allows you to brew smaller quantities. On the top end, a lot of it depends on how far you’ll let the brew go. I say that because as you’re brewing, we like to get people started by checking the TDS both in the output from the brewer as well as what you’re catching in a 55 gallon bin that comes with the brewer that accumulates your brew.
If you let that continue to go, you could brew up to 70 or 80 gallons of an RTB product. But it depends on the roast, the grind, and the origin. Currently we’re finding a good cup profile by brewing to a concentrate. You can brew 15 to 20 gallons of concentrate anywhere from upper 4.2, upper 4.8 TDS. Then you can cut that down to whatever end product that you feel like you want to present to your audience. It’ll brew that in three and a half, four, five, six hours.
We’ve got a number of the units out now and those are the typical brew times, three and a half to six hours. That’s going to yield you 15 to 20 gallons. You can push it to 25 gallons of concentrate then cut it.
Cary: Up to typically doubling that, at least 50 gallons to 60 gallons.
Ray: Yes, I would say that’s the typical brew. The typical brew is going to yield between 45 and 60 gallons. You can do that easily in four, four and a half hours. Then the catch tank attaches easily to a pump system and you can pump right in to your kegs. Or a lot of people would take it and they may do two brews a day. They’ll accumulate the coffee at a bright tank and then hook it right up to their canning line. So, it’s super sleek, super fast, super easy.
Brendan: That’s awesome.
Cary: Yes. It brews in a day, that’s amazing.
Brendan: It’s unheard of.
Brendan: Actually, we talked with Collin from Coldsbrew in Dubai. He’s brewing, immersion brewing at a 10 hour cycle. He found 10 hours to be his cycle. So, he says it’s tough because his day is almost have to be 10 hours long or he’s got to start one late at night and come in early in the morning. But he could almost do two in a day if he wanted to, but that would be a long day.
Cary: You just don’t sleep.
Brendan: Your system however, would allow a single brewer to be able to basically complete two batches in a day.
Brendan: That’s amazing. That’s, gosh –
Cary: That’s a big game changer.
Cary: A lot of companies [unintelligible 00:20:51]
Brendan: In terms of speed and in terms of volume –
Ray: Quality, yes.
Brendan: Because I know as you start talking about larger and larger volumes of coffee, filtration always seems to be like the hang-up. We get calls all day long about, “How do I filter 300 gallons of coffee or 300 pounds of coffee.” [laughs] What you think? I don’t know man.
Ray: You make the equipment. You figure it out.
Brendan: Yes. yes. That’s a tonne of coffee. Cool, Gosh, what else can you tell us about the system that –
Cary: Well, you just talked on filtering, I mean, do we need any post-filtering in the system, or does it produce a clean product?
Ray: It sounds crazy but it’s self-filtering. The quality that you get out of the brewer is crystal clear coffee and the reason its self-filtering is if you’ve ever been around a pool filter where they just run water through sand, it’s exactly like that.
Ray: It’s self-filtering, the clarity is just brilliant, and grain is in the top, self-filtering grain’s at the bottom and that five hour brew cycle, yes.
Cary: Once the brew is done, you have your catch bin, you pull that away. Can you explain like how we get the grains out of this machine?
Ray: You have to think of it as a cylinder and on the bottom of the cylinder, there is a perforated plate that would hold a polyethylene screen. That plate is supported by an articulating arm, kind of, in a very remote way what you’d see at a dentist’s office. That articulating arm comes out and supports the bottom of the screen. It detaches the screen from the cylinder with six T pins and then it slides out in a horizontal way.
Ray: The grains drop straight out into a waste bin, and if your shop is set up, you can clean in place in about 15 minutes and turn your brew cycle right around.
Cary: That’s awesome.
Brendan: That is awesome. Yes, and truth be told, Cary and I have brewed on this with you one time. I haven’t wanted to try to explain anything because I’ve only seen it once. You’ve had a lot more experience with this machine, but as the cold brew was coming out we tasted it at, “Gosh, I think our first sample was,”
Cary: What was the TD at? 15, 20?
Brendan: It was like? 12 or something? It was through the roof.
Cary: Yes, your first drippings off that thing, all the coffee grains –
Brendan: Yes, and then you test it 15 minutes in or thirty minutes in and you know it’s down below 10 and you try that. It’s cool to see it as you go and then obviously sampling out of the catch bin as well once you get it all mixed.
Brendan: I think this is going to revolutionize the way that people can and do cold brew and I think it’s going to take a lot of people’s cold brew to the next level.
Cary: For sure. It’s very much bringing, I feel like, back to the beer industry. You’ve got your brewer that’s checking his gravity levels constantly to make sure like, are we spot on? Cool, we’re done.
Brendan: Yes. Very similar.
Cary: We didn’t really talk about — You have like a controlled interface on this thing. You want to talk about that a little bit? You are able to set it all up digitally?
Ray: Right, so we use laboratory grade equipment that basically monitors the dispensing of the water. You’ve got water, comes in, goes through a shutoff valve then goes through a flow sensor and that flow sensor provides data to a control box. Currently, the actual flow rates are set by a user, but the control box calculates — you put in some variables, what you want to yield, what you want your time to be, how much coffee you’re going to use, and then it will calculate your target flow rates and then monitor what your targets are and compare that to what you’re currently doing. Your brew will progress when you get to whatever you decided that you want to yield. The brew will automatically shut off and sound an alarm for you. And we’ve got some neat features coming where we are working on a Bluetooth interface in an app so you can monitor your brew from your phone.
Cary: That’s cool.
Ray: Where the system does not currently manage water temperatures. If you want to manage water temperatures, you can do that in front of the brewer with a chiller, but we’re working on a temperature sensor, so we’ve got some neat improvements coming that will provide even more control over the brewer. But the way it works right now is just perfect.
Brendan: Yes, and gosh, all that stuff is just, going back to beer. You see brewers doing taking these logins or read-ins throughout the brew cycle. Now I see this coming into coffee especially with your system. Log-in the flow rates, log-in TDS’s instead of gravities. Just all things that are going to, I think, allow people to brew a more consistent cup of coffee and yes, get a very consistent product out there.
Cary: Yes it’s cool watching that flow meter because we haven’t really talked about the way your things sprays yet, but it sprays such a fine pattern of water over this large surface area of coffee grounds and you feel like, “It’s got to be putting more water than that.” You watch this little flow meter and it’s like, I can’t remember what it was, but it was like a gallon every 10 minutes.
Ray: Yes, its typical flow rates are eight to 15 ounces per minute. It will convert between imperial and metric.
Cary: Yes. You see this constant flow and you think, “Man, there’s just got to be more water than that,” but it’s so fine and so precise that it’s really cool to see it all digitally displayed as well.
Ray: Right. We searched the world over for high precision low flow nozzles, and it does come with a couple different nozzles because depending on your flow rate, a nozzle is designed to max efficiency and max expursion at a certain flow rate. It does come with a couple of selected nozzles that should manage 90% of the needs out there.
Brendan: Awesome. Well, yes. I think it’s a great idea and gosh–now, let’s go back to beer and brewing and there’s just so many parallels. You said self-filtration I’m thinking about when we mash our grains. We’ll cycle a mash on itself and until it starts to run clear and the grain has actually set up a self-filtration.
Ray: Exactly the same concept.
Brendan: Yes. I think it’s brilliant to use that in coffee and for cold brew. I think that’s cool. All right. Well, gosh, anything else we should know about this deal as of today?
Ray: We’ve got some units out there with innovators and we’re getting great feedback on it. We just did an interview yesterday with the guy up in Victoria, British Columbia and they love the unit. That reminds me, actually the unit, because of the efficiency of beer-brewing, you’ll actually get 30% more yield cold brew than you would if from immersion brewing. These guys up at Fernwood, up in Victoria they were like, “It’s a better cup. It’s faster and we get more coffee.”
Cary: It’s saving them money.
Ray: Saving them money and time, absolutely. There’s no agitation but the act of, in a way, erosion, water flowing through the grinds erodes the coffee down extracts the minerals and it extracts the compounds and it’s incredibly efficient.
Cary: That’s cool. Well, by the time this episode airs, I’m sure we’ll have websites up. You have a website.
Ray: Yes. We’re excited to be working with Kay Atwood.
Cary: Yes, we’ll have it all over our website.
Ray: We’ve been following your podcast for a long time. I found just through your podcast with Batch coffee. You guys are certainly actively engaged to the industry and we look forward to [inaudible 00:29:21] with you guys on continued development and getting this thing in the hands of the people that want it.
Brendan: Do you hear that people? Ray found us all the way from Thailand.
Ray: On your podcast. I found you on your podcast.
Cary: Amazing how small the world is now.
Brendan: It is, man. It’s pretty accessible.
Cary: Yes. We just had the guy from Dubai on the other day. It’s just amazing.
Brendan: It really is. We hit some guest with some random questions. If you weren’t in coffee or doing coffee things right now, what do you think you’d be doing, business-wise?
Ray: I’d love to be a push pilot.
Brendan: Just flying out into the middle of nowhere?
Ray: I’ve spent some time in airplanes flying and I love that sense of freedom in an airplane and the challenge of landing in the back on freestyle.
Ray: That goes well with [unintelligible 00:30:17] cup of coffee.
Brendan: Yes. You got to be alert or you’ll land in a bush.
Ray: Yes. That’s something that I’m very enjoy–it’s a very enjoyable activity.
Brendan: Are you a pilot? Do you fly?
Ray: Yes. My license has lapsed since I’ve been so busy.
Brendan: You’ve got to stop standing in those rental car lines.
Cary: I know.
Ray: Developing the brewer I haven’t had time to do much of the work.
Cary: That’s how it is.
Ray: Yes. We’ll get back to it soon enough.
Cary: Yes. Good.
Brendan: All right. Well, I think we’ve got a solid episode there. Ray, thanks for sitting down with us and sharing the brewer.
Ray: My pleasure.
Announcer: If you’re looking to learn more about cold brew or draught coffee, make sure you check out Keg Outlet’s Ultimate Guide to Cold Brew Coffee and Serving Coffee on Draft. But hey, don’t just take my word for it. Here’s Daniel Browning from the Browning Beverage Company in Marfa, Texas.
Daniel Browning: I got on the internet and started looking around and I found Keg Outlet’s Ultimate Guide to Cold Brew Coffee and Serving Coffee and read it couple more times than I’ve read anything in my life. That was pretty much all the research I needed.
Announcer: If you’re looking to start your journey with cold brew or draft coffee, check out the Ultimate Guide to Cold Brew Coffee and Serving Coffee on Draft. A free 34-page eBook offered at kegoutlet.com. You can get there through the Drips and Draughts website by going to dripsanddraughts.com/ultimateguide.
Brendan: All right. Thanks to Ray for joining us on that episode. We hope to get him back on. We hope to talk more with him and hopefully some others about the cold drip process versus the immersion cold brew process that we’re all used to. As we mentioned in the episode, we’ve partnered up with Ray. We’re going to be carrying and distributing the brew gum system through Keg Outlets. We’ve got a page up on the site now. If you’re interested in learning more about it, you can check it out at kegoutlet.com/brewbomb. On that page there’s a link to sign up for information and updates if you’re interested in learning more as we put more information together about the system.
Just to review some of the bullets and features that this system offers, it’s got a digital interface that allows you to dial in your brew which is something that’s totally new. It self-filters, meaning that the coffee almost acts as a filter. I know a Cary and I have talked about this on many episodes and brewing, when you’re brewing beer, all the grains start to self-filter. It’s got drip technology which is just totally new and it allows you to do batch sizes that can vary from two and a half all the way up to about 60 gallons. It’s pretty versatile and I think the biggest jump over traditional cold brew methods is this has brew cycles. They range from two to six hours for an entire brew which is pretty amazing.
If you’ve got any questions about this new system, feel free to reach out to us at [email protected] or of course, you can email the show at [email protected] If you’re looking for links or show notes from this episode, you can find those by going to dripsanddraughts.com/72. We’ll set up a second link that will take you to the show notes. It’ll be dripsanddraughts.com/brewbomb. Last but not least, we mentioned cold brew cocktails in that episode a little bit and we’re still taking submissions for our eBook.
If you want to get your cold brew cocktail or your company showcased in this ebook, go to dripsanddraughts.com/coldbrewcocktails. It’ll take you to a form where you could submit a recipe, information about your company and then all you got to do is email us a high resolution picture and that’ll give a chance to get into this ebook and get a little publicity for yourself. All right. That’s going to do it for this episode. Thanks to Cary for being here today and thanks to Ray Berger for joining us in studio. We’ll see you again next week another episode of Drips & Draughts Podcast.