Today we’re joined by Alex Leech from Bellerophon Cold Brew out of Canberra Australia. Alex has dialed in the art of cold brew filtration, so he joins us to discuss his filtration process as well as custom roasting for cold brew to get the most out of your beans.
Highlights & Takeaways
Single = Flat, single origin cold brew
Take Away = To Go (for all of our US listeners)
Sparkling = Nitro’d coffee / micro bubbles
Episode 48 Transcript
Brendan Hanson: Hey there? you’re listening to the Drips and Draughts Podcast. And today we’re joined by Alex Leech from Bellerophon Cold Brew. Alex is based out of Canberra Australia or if you’re from the US you might call it Canberra Australia like I did, but for the Aussies it’s Canberra. This just wouldn’t be a complete episode if I didn’t butcher somebody’s name or the pronunciation of a city, state, or country.
Anyways, Alex is joining us today to talk specifically about filtration of the cold brew as well as developing custom roast profiles that work best for the cold brew. Before we get into today’s episode with Alex, I’m going to take a moment to do something that we haven’t done in a while and that read a review from iTunes. I’m also going to give you a little nudge to hop onto iTunes and leave this show a review.
Next time you’re on your phone, your iPad, or your computer look this show up on iTunes and click to leave us a review and rate the show. It’s easy and it helps the show out. I can’t remember what review I read last, I’m just going to start with the most recent review, and this one is kind of cool because it comes from somebody in Morocco.
This review is titled Great Help Figuring out How to Build a System. It’s a five-star review from core W50. The review says, “This is a great show, we are specialty coffee roasters in Morocco and have been playing with cold brew for year or so, and feel pretty comfortable with the coffee side of things. This podcast has been incredible in helping us figure out how to get cold brew offered on tap and start playing around with nitro.”
“Before this podcast we’ve been stuck thing about how to bottle or just sell by the glass. Now with the idea of serving on tap and the information how to do it, we’re looking at starting a mobile cold brew cart and serving a cold brew and nitro on tap. We hope to be placing an order soon from Keg Outlet, thanks for the shout out guys, to have all the needed tools and look forward to moving into the world of kegging and nitro coffee. Thanks for all the helpful information.”
Thanks in return for the review there. As reviews go, I’ve got to say that’s probably one of the longer ones that we’ve received. Thanks for taking the time to pop on the iTunes and leave a review. Hint hint. One other thing to quickly mention is we’re quickly approaching our one-year anniversary episode. On that episode, we ‘re going to be announcing a winner for Keg Outlets giveaway, of an all-in-one counter-top nitro coffee fridge.
If that sounds like something you’d like to enter to win, you can do so by going to dripsanddraughts.com/giveaway. That will shoot you over to the Keg Outlet site that shows you what this is. At the bottom of that page there’s a quick little signup form, just name and email address. Just fill that in and you’ll be entered to win one of these. All right think that’s all the business that I need to handle today. Let’s get into today’s episode with Alex Leech from Bellerophon cold brew.
Cary: Are you looking top get started with serving your favorite craft beverage on draft? kegoutlet.com has you covered for all of your drought beverage needs, from complete kegerators to individual parts for upgrade and replacements, Keg outlet will help get you pouring your craft beverage on draft. To learn more visit kegoutlet.com
Brendan: All right welcome back to the Drips and Draughts Podcast. As always I’m Brendan Hanson, I’ve got Cary in the studio with me today.
Brendan: We are joined by Alex Leech from Bellerophon Coffee or Bellerophon Cold Brew in Australia. Right, Alex?
Alex Leech: That’s it
Brendan: all right how are you doing today?
Alex: I’m good, man. I’m really good.
Brendan: Wow, thanks for joining us
Alex: Thank you.
Brendan: Before we get into some of the topics that we’re going to discuss today would mind giving us a little background on yourself?
Alex: Yes, sure. I’m definitely not from the coffee world, I’m ex-real Australian Force imagery intelligence. I got into coffee just by having to work, I guess, pretty longs hours sometimes. More seriously got into coffee back in 2015, and from there I met a good friend of mine, Nick Walker who had a coffee shop at the time in Canberra here. That’s when I really started drinking what could be considered especially great coffee.
From there, I wanted to brew some really good coffee at home as well but I didn’t really want to invest in five or 10,000-dollar espresso machine and have five coffees before you get a good one in the morning. I wanted to be as true to the commodity of coffee as possible. I looked at the simplest way to brew and the most effective way to brew and that turned out to be cold brew.
Alex: From there I wanted to get it as good as possible and it proceeded like that. I started a fairly long and scientific process to work out how to get the best cold brew that I could with beans that I was using. That took about five months and I did about three or four brews a week, just changing one parameter at a time. So I started with ground setting up a brew ratio and brew time, then slowly change one at a time using two of the [unintelligible 00:06:25] reports. Recorded all my results and had a fairly well designed palatine that were testing all of this for me to give me feedback on results. Because my palate at that point wasn’t refined enough to be able to tell the difference between changes of 23 hours or 24 hours in brew time, for example. I was using them as feedback and ended up getting it reasonably good. From there–
Cary: Amazing, no kidding
Alex: Nick started getting really into it. In November of 2015, he asked me to brew his cold brew for his shop. In return, he just gave me free coffee. He gave me the beans, I brew the cold brew, and then I got free hot coffees around. Was a good deal.
Cary: That was good exchange
Alex: Yes. absolutely. Then I just had few other people getting into the hospitality industry here in Canberra. A few other people started requesting it and I thought that I can start a little business out of it just to keep my time busy on the weekends, and in the evenings. From there, I think my first order was one gallon and now I’m doing 25 each gallons a week.
Brendan: Wow, you scaled up pretty considerably?
Alex: Yes. Very considerably. I started to hire [unintelligible 00:07:55] pots and I brought SS container and one of your mesh filters. And took it back and started brewing more seriously. It was sort of one per week and now it’s in regions of two to three.
Cary: Nice. if you don’t mind us asking about your cold brew process a little bit when you were initially experimenting and changing its parameters. What were you looking for in end product? Were you measuring TDS or were you- what specifically were you measuring or were you just going on taste?
Alex: I was doing TDS just as a good scientific baseline because also taste is subjective to each individual. But I was more looking to replicate really good quality hot brewed filter. V60 alkylate [unintelligible 00:08:45]. I was trying to replicate that, that style of mouthfeel it in a cold brew product which isn’t typically same. With that clarity and that clean mouthfeel, but also with that body that comes along with that mouthfeel.
Cary: Got you. Nice. Tell us a little bit more about your company and your business model? You said you’re supplying to quite a few people, or you’re cold brewing for quite a few companies now. Are you selling direct at all?
Alex: Yes, I do the markets. farmers markets here on Saturday morning and I do about eight to 10 gallons in four hours on Saturday morning and about four, I guess. That’s a combination of nitro and single. That is also a combination of [unintelligible 00:09:37] and takeaways in a 750ml bottle.
Cary: Very cool.
Brendan: When you say nitro and single, by single do you mean like a flat version of the coffee?
Alex: Correct, yes. Single is flat but also it’s a single origin, from a flat coffee or any single origins. We get onto the roasting a little bit, but yes it’s singles for the flat and then I blend a milk-based blend for the nitrogen.
Brendan: How’d you come up with the name Bellerophon for your company? Am I wrong, is that Greek?
Alex: It is yes. Bellerophon the Greek god of rods Pegasus, and in Greek methodology he is a demigod but he used to slay monsters and demons for the great gods. We use the analogy that if Bellerophon Cold Brew takes on the sort of the role of in Bellerophon in Greek mythology then my cold brew Slys a lof all of cold brews.
Brendan: Like it.
Alex: it’s also a bit of apply on the logo itself which is the rearing Pegasus with Bellerophon board, and the god gave me my start, Nick Walker, his logo was a reran stallion’s. So I said, “What’s something similar to hot coffee or hot coffee is similar to cold brew because it’s all coffee based. But what’s similar to a reran stallion installing and also looked at Pegasystem into start exploring down that little alley.”
Brendan: Let’s put some wings on that stallion.
Cary: I know.
Alex: That’s right.
Cary: I want to see the logo now.
Alex: I can just go to website.
Brendan: Hold up and put that on the show notes for sure.
Alex: Would be great.
Brendan: Where do you see your company going in 2017 and beyond?
Alex: I’m actually going to go through some rebranding in probably the middle of this year. I’ve site designed the whole– I essentially have done everything from scratch. I designed the logo, build the website, did all the branding associated with it. It’s on the stickers, the field, and everything associated with the company. I’ve actually gone through and got a graphic artist to redesign the logo. They’ll have a few minor changes but nothing huge.
I’m looking into Canny the nitrogen that’s turned out to be a favorite more of a struggle than I thought it was going to be without using the widgets. We don’t have cause electricity cannery out here in Australia to do that for us on contract basis. It’s going to be interesting, we’ll see how it goes.
Alex: Then I’ve got looking for some expansion into liquor venues using the cold brew on the nitrogen tap to serve a cold brew martini. Looking at a cold brew white tea as well.
Brendan: Nice, white tea. Sounds good. Speaking a little more generally where do you see just cold brew going? You know this year and beyond this year it’s obviously growing exponentially over the past couple of years so what are your thoughts on it the next couple of years?
Alex: Yes. I certainly think that it’s going to follow the craft model in the United States and we’re quite a few years behind that. We’re only just starting to see now the numbers of craft breweries pop up that we see in the US. So we’re still in that in the early stage of expansion and cold brew is a long way behind. We’re in craft brews in Australia. There’s quite a number of obviously larger cold brews in the capital cities, like Melbourne and Sydney in Brisbane. But we don’t have anywhere near the numbers that the you guys have over there.
For example in Canberra it’s me, I have the specialty market, especially coffee market on brewing, for example. There’s no one else in the market that does what I do. There is one other person that does another markets on a very small scale. So I’ve essentially got the market monopolized at the moment and taken all the special healthy places out. There is another company launching in DC sometime. I’m not sure when, but I’m that will be the only competitor essentially that I will have in the market at the moment.
Brendan: Amazing. Ramp up while you can.
Cary: As you say it’s a nice position to be in.
Alex: Yes. that’s right. Once expansion happens so obviously then you start competing with Melbourne city and other capital cities [unintelligible 00:14:49]. That’s long awaited.
Brendan: All right. To get on to some of the topics that we want to talk about today filtration being one of them. A lot of our customers are using filtration, like very, very high filtration to achieve a shelf stability label through local authorities. What’s your thought on filtration like as it pertains to mouthfeel and any other thoughts on filtration?
Alex: Yes. My personal take on filtration is directly related to taste. I filter to a point where I feel I get the best taste and mouthfeel out of that. Not particularly for shelf life, because even though I’ve tasted my cold brew out for six months in the fridge just sitting there I feel that it loses a lot of its character after two weeks. I put a two week best before date on that to ensure my stock is getting through it.
Once I filter it and then I taste it, I want that taste to be the taste that customers enjoy for the entire time is on the shelf. I don’t want a decorated product because I know how good can be so I put a very short shelf life on it and make sure that the stock is moving through that stock as quickly as possible. If they’re not then I actually go in and pull this off the shelves and restock it with whatever they had, just with fresh stock just to make sure that it’s top quality.
Cary: Staying fresh.
Brendan: When you say filter, I know you said use in one of our stainless steel mesh filters. Are you doing a secondary filter or what’s your process out there?
Alex: I’m doing secondary and a tertiary filter as well. I believe your mesh boskie’s is about 74 microns. I then do a five micron filtration to get some of the larger suspended solids up and then I go down point five micron to really give it that clarity. I was going to five are still finding overbrew when it’s in the bottle, because it continues to brew obviously with those suspended solids in there. I was finding that once I dropped down point five micron that overbrew became a fairly negligible effect on the actual product itself and the taste.
Brendan: Wow. So you’re taking it way down. Do you feel that as you filter it that far that it changes the taste and or the mouthfeel at all?
Alex: No. Not at point five micron mark and not with the filters that I use. I use polyfill filter. The [unintelligible 00:17:48] the beer and wine industry. But when you start using paper filters that’s when the taste– because the paper filters you might see in here it’s standard like Chemex or V60 pour-over in the tens of microns.
What they do is they degrade quite quickly when you use them for extended periods. They’re not really designed for two or three minute processes. When you start pouring cold brew over them for 10-15 minutes at a time the pipe starts to degrade and in parts of flavor on the actual product. That’s when I finally have a negative effect on the filtering.
I think that heavy filtration at point five micron mark it can reduce some of the sweetness but I think that that sweetness is imparted completely through the emotion of the cold brew rather than like using cold drip, you don’t get that sort of saturation of the water.
Brendan: Got you. I know you said you put bottles of cold brew into your fridge just to store and see how they last and how they how taste maybe for four to six months. Have you done that with a pre-filtered cold brew. Maybe just out of the stainless basket next to one that you filter down point five microns?
Alex: No, funnily enough I haven’t done that, but I might try that soon actually.
Brendan: Yes. Just out of curiosity because that’s one of– I know that a couple of our customers have gotten shelf stability for I think up to 30 days by filtering down below 5 microns. It’d be interesting to see the difference of the two products after a month or two filtered–
Alex: Yes. I mentioned the over-brew from Lexus, say 75 microns. Thinking that’s 150 times Corsa filtration and what I’m currently using, the over-brew would be fairly significant, I think.
Brendan: Yes, absolutely. You’re removing pretty much any particular at any you know fines that may have been in the Cold brew by filtering that that find–
Alex: Yes, I’m removing as many as I can. I think the bottle still sits there and when it’s sit there unclear glossy still say quite a few fun settling at the bottom even point five microns.
Brendan: Any other final thoughts on filtration before we jump to the next topic?
Alex: No. Good.
Brendan: All right. The next one was roasting for cold brew. This is a cool topic because Cary and I are buying five pound bags of green coffee now and we’re roasting here on occasion. What’s you’re thought process behind roasting, or coming up with a roast specifically for cold brew?
Alex: I found that the hot pour is filtered coffee that I liked. When I was beginning this process, actually, where a lot of roast than what was typically used for espresso, or milk-based drinks. Been aiming towards that hot filter style of drinking in a cold base. I started using those lot of roast. Then around the 17, 18, 19% development stage, which is very, very light, probably much lighter than what you see a lot of in the United States. It’s very acidic and very bright, and quite complex in some ways as well.
I started using those kinds of roast for my cold brew. Then I had an opportunity with Red Brick Espresso and Tim Manning and the guys there to actually do some custom roasting for me. We spent a few months designing a roast profile that was ideal for my single-origin, flat-based cold brew. We’re actually roasting six kilos a week of single-origin for me to use in my cold brew. Yes it’s turned out really well, and it’s been a really great partnership. To have a local roaster here who’s literally five minutes down the road from my house which is where I do all my brewing, and to be able to use the grinders there and all of that, has been a really great resource, and it’s turned out to be a valuable partnership.
Brendan: I bet.
Cary: No, kidding.
Brendan: For all the American listeners, what six kilos is about 12 to 15 pounds of coffee?
Alex: Yes. I think point five pounds, is it? To the kilo?
Brendan: Okay, completely on the spot here with you.
Cary: Something about that.
Alex: Basically, double it. I had some notes here on the amount of coffee. I use about one gallon to about ten ounces of coffee. If you expand that out, you’re doing 10 gallons brews.
Brendan: Okay. You’re always doing a ready-to-drink and you’re not diluting afterwards?
Alex: Absolutely, Yes. We go back to the TDS. The total dissolved solids when you add water to a concentrate. I find the mouthfeel isn’t the same as when you brew ready-to-drink because you get that impartation of the actual coffee onto that molecule of water. I find that diluted cold brews, concentrated and diluted doesn’t have the same mouthfeel as ready-to-drink.
Alex: Just a little more shallow?
Brendan: Yes. A little thinner in the mid-palate especially.
Cary: We’ve heard that from quite a few people now.
Brendan: You say you’re roasting a certain way for your single-origins for the flat coffee, what’s the preference when you do nitro coffee? Does that tend to get darker? You still use a lighter roast there?
Alex: No. I think the reason– so I use a darker roast for that, probably around the 22% development mark. I use a roast and a blend design for milk. It’s got those chocolatey multi-character notes in there. I find that when I try my single-origin cold brew, obviously wanted to do a single-origin cold brew on nitro because it was just easy to use one type of coffee across the board.
It turned out that the brightness and the acidity in the single-origin that I currently use didn’t sit well with the creamyness of the nitro. It’s kind of a bit confusing for your palate, where you get this really creamy mouthfeel and then it’s super bright note on the tongue as well. I moved to the milk-based, darker blend, just because it suits better. You want it to be a milk-based alternative for someone. You don’t want to have to add milk to something to like you want to represent what it is, not to have to add stuff to it or add sugar or sweetness. I found that with the single-origin, you probably had to add a bit of sweet to make it easy palatable for the vast majority of customers.
Brendan: That makes sense. Relating that to beer, I feel the same way like a nitro IPA. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around because a lot of times IPAs pretty bright and a lot more citrusy. Just on nitro it’s not something that I expect. So you get that creamyness from nitrogen?
Alex: Yes, and it’s very morish as well when you do use a blend design for milk and you just want to keep drinking it and that’s obviously great for me, because that means people will drink more of it and want to buy it.
Brendan: Jumping around a little bit, when you’re doing your filtration for your nitro coffee versus your single, your flat coffee, is the filtration any different between the two or you’re still going point five micron for everything?
Alex: The brew process is identical. The way I achieve the milk chocolate malt heavier mouthfeel in the nitrogen is by using that darker developed coffee. By using that more heavily roast, even just in a couple minutes, I find that that brings through those characters that you want for the nitrogen. I don’t really change the process whatsoever. Brewing from coffee to coffee, it’s all the same and I found out that it works well across the board.
Brendan: With your flat coffee are you’re infusing any nitrogen in that? I know, maybe not infusing, we’ll make a keg of flat coffee. We’ll serve it at four or six PSI for a keg. Lasts us the whole week.
Cary: Last us a long time.
Brendan: After a week or so though, we’ll start to see a little bit of nitrogen–
Cary: Yes. Seeping in to the liquid.
Brendan: Yes, so when we pour on we get a little bit of mouthfeel a little more body from there. I’ve talked to a couple of companies now that are actually trying to get that imparted into their cold brew. Not heavy like a nitro coffee, but just a little bit of nitrogen to kind of change the mouthfeel.
Alex: Yes, just a little bit of sparkling. Honestly, my kegs don’t last that long.
Brendan: Not a worry for you.
Alex: Yes. When it do last that long, they’re on the nitro and the brew process stops anyway and you want that heavy PSI in there. I haven’t really experienced that.
Brendan: Nice. I guess the last kind of topic we have on here was talking about the cold brew landscape in Australia, more specifically in Canberra where you’re at. Did I say that right? I butchered that.
Alex: Yes. It’s all right. If you’re an Aussie it’s Canberrah, you got to put an ‘h’ on the end.
Alex: Got it.
Brendan: You’re outside of the larger cities, I take it? How close are you?
Alex: It’s about three hours from Sidney and about seven hours from Melbourne. We’re dead smack in the middle and Canberra is the capital, but it’s one of the smallest capital cities. There is only probably about 400,000 people here and with that obviously comes a fairly small landscape as well. You can probably narrow down, especially coffee producers, hot coffee producers down to probably 10 or 15 cafes. Then we’ve got two large roasters here. You’d be probably familiar with Inu Coffee. The 2015 World Brewsters Champs [unintelligible 00:29:39], and then we’ve got Red Bricks Espresso. Those two share the market, fairly equally in percentage. At times we’ve cold brew- [crosstalk]
Brendan: In terms of these bigger-
Alex: – it’s not really much at all. A couple of cafes doing the right thing and I’m really the only one doing this hostile outsourcing as a specialization.
Brendan: Okay. That was going to be my next question. Are any of these big companies getting into cold brew yet? I know around here a lot of bigger companies are serving cold brew and we’re seeing more and more cold brew companies pop up who were specifically looking to bottle it and sell bottles of it. It’s still developing the market.
Brendan: I’ve received some intel that a couple of companies are on the verge of- or have procured equipment, quite large amounts of equipment. It was a smaller roaster here, who apparently procured five or six 50-gallon containers. That is when I just bought seven grand worth of equipment and they’re going to start brewing cold brew, obviously. I’m not too worried about that. I mean, the process that I took to get to where I am today is fairly long and arduous. And even if I’ve just had that 18 months head start, I’m okay with that.
Really, sickly more people drinking cold brew is a good thing because it raises the awareness of the product. Even if it is uncomfortable with my solutions at and I’m fairly comfortable that no one else is going to get where I am. If my own sits at the top of the trade then that’s cool and everyone else can taste everybody else’s stuff and not enjoy it as much as mine, and that’s a good thing.
Brendan: Yes, I almost see it like the craft beer market where you get craft beer lovers who seek out new craft beers and I see it being the same for cold brew.
Alex: Yes, I know. Honestly, I do that for coffee. I’m the kind of person that I’m trying to sell to when I sell cold brew. I went to Seattle in November for my day job and I did a bit of a tour, went around and saw five or six cafes in Seattle and in Olympia just to understand what the market was like and where they’re at in their coffee. That’s what I enjoy doing and I know people do the same thing for craft brew. I did that with beer in Tacoma area as well, did that Tacoma brew to a thing. I think it’s called South Sound Craft Crawl or something like that.
Brendan: Yes, definitely no shortage of beer up in that area.
Alex: Yes, so really good.
Brendan: Right on Alex. I think we’ve pretty much covered everything unless you want to touch on anything else. I know we had a couple more notes that maybe we’ll get you back on in a future episode and talk about the wholesale models for cold brew and beyond wholesaling. How bars and restaurants can start using cold brew. Maybe even how you, as a cold-brewer, go about getting your products into bars and restaurants. I think that would probably be a good topic for a lot of people.
Cary: Yes, absolutely.
Alex: Yes, I mean, it’s hard when you’re not an actual salesman. I think you need to get out of your comfort zone and really get into that space and just start building relationships on a deeper level in making the value proposition. Something where you don’t actually ask for anything back for the first couple of times. Just go on and give some free cold brew to someone. It doesn’t cost that much to produce so just go on and give them something for free and say, “Here you go, it’s a little gift from me,” or whatever. And then, after a couple of times then you can say, “Well, how do you feel [unintelligible 00:33:39],” but we’ll talk more on that.
Brendan: Yes, I think that’d be a good topic.
Brendan: Well, cool man. If people want to find your website or find you on social media, where can they go to do that?
Alex: It’s a bellerophoncoldbrew.com.au, and I’m sure you’ll chuck the link in the show notes. Spelling Bellerophon might be challenging but it should be some of the first results to get up, hopefully. And then, obviously, on Instagram and social media as well. So Instagram, Facebook, and Snapchat. You can find me there, Bellerophon Cold Brew.
Brendan: Right on.
Brendan: Well, hey, thanks so much for joining us. What time is it there? We hope we didn’t keep you up late or make you get up too early.
Alex: No, it’s about 8:30 in the morning here so I’ll be trotting off to work in any second.
Brendan: Probably enjoying a cold brew right now too, huh?
Alex: Glass of water. Just had a filter coffee. Just finished the filter, I had myself a myself pour-over.
Brendan: Awesome, Alex. Thanks again for joining us.
Cary: Thanks for coming out.
Brendan: Yes, good having you on.
Alex: All right. Thanks very much guys.
If you’re looking to learn more about cold brew or draft coffee, make sure you check out Keg Outlet’s Ultimate guide to cold brew coffee and serving coffee on drought. But hey, don’t take just my word for it, here’s Daniel Browning from the Browning Beverage Company in Murphy, Texas.
Daniel Browning: And as I got on the internet and started looking around and I found Keg Outlet’s Ultimate guide to cold brew coffee and read it a couple more times than I’ve read anything in my life, that was pretty much all the research I needed.
So if you’re looking to start your journey with cold brew or draught coffee, check out the Ultimate guide to cold brew coffee and serving coffee on drought. A free 34-page E-book offered at kegouotlet.com. You can get there trough Drips & Draughts website by going to dripsanddraughts.com/ultimateguide.
All right, a big thanks to Alex Leech for joining us today. He had to get up super early just to make that happen so thank, thank you Alex. I always love hearing about filtration. It seems that there’s so many different schools of thought on that. Some people filter as little as possible and then we have Alex today, who is filtering down to a half a micron so pretty much filtering as much as possible.
Let us know what you think of filtration. Drop us a line at email@example.com. Alex also mentioned that he might be getting into canning this year. So if that’s something that interests you, make sure you check out episode 44 where we spoke with Chart Industries, a company that makes nitrogen dosing systems. You can get to that episode by going to dripsanddraughts.com/44.
All right, that does it for today. If you’re looking for links or show notes for this episode, you can find those by going to dripsanddraughts.com/48. Another thanks to Alex Leech from Bellerophon Cold Brew for joining us today, I’m Brendan Hanson and we’ll see you again next week on the Drips and Draughts Podcast.